SoloHQ: Forum

Forum

Post 0

Wednesday, November 9 - 9:39am

Link

Edit

Ed,

Great Article.

Muslims and non-Muslims alike must understand that only widespread commitment to the values of reason, individualism, and personal liberty can counter terrorism and, in the long run, produce cultures and political regimes fit for men and women of peace and good will. But even if they come to that understanding, will they have the courage to act on it? That may well decide their future, and ours.

I don't see how Muslims can remain Muslims and have a 'commitment to the values of reason, individualism, and personal liberty'. In other words it is the Muslim part that would have to go. These concepts might be tortured out of the Koran, but as I have pointed out elsewhere, few Muslims follow the Koran alone. The hadith(s) are more highly regarded and from which, Torquemada himself would not find anything resembling reason or personal liberty.

Post 1

Thursday, November 10 - 7:25am

Link

Edit

I read it in print and have been meaning to tell you, Ed, that it is excellent. It adds original and important points to the on-going debate. And I was pleased to see someone roll up their sleeves and dispense with the utterly superficial Mr. Pape.

Post 2

Thursday, November 10 - 10:06am

Link

Edit

Thanks Jason (and Robert!). Pape's data's interesting but he just doesn't know what to do with it.

Post 3

Thursday, November 10 - 9:30pm

Link

Edit

Ed, I found this to be a well written article, and it's given me some things to think about. In particular, I thought you did a good job of qualifying your points so as to leave no mistake as to your position.

I do have one question, though. At the end of your piece, you conclude:

Muslims and non-Muslims alike must understand that only widespread commitment to the values of reason, individualism, and personal liberty can counter terrorism and, in the long run, produce cultures and political regimes fit for men and women of peace and good will. But even if they come to that understanding, will they have the courage to act on it? That may well decide their future, and ours.

True enough. It therefore follows that an authentic secular movement must emerge in the region, and this movement must be willing to stand up to the fundamentalists (fighting to the death if need be). A hint of that happened in Iran a few years back, but it has recently been set back. The question becomes: does the US have any way of influencing or jumpstarting such a development? If not, then the nation building project in Iraq and Afghanistan is an excersize in futility. But if the US can influence a new cultural movement, the next question then becomes: are America's words and deeds clearly conveying to potential allies in the region that America unwaiveringly stands for the values of "reason, individualism, and personal liberty"? Not in the slightest!

The only values that Bush and other coalition officials talk about are 'democracy', 'freedom', 'liberty' etc, which are extremely vague terms that mean vastly different things to different people. For example, here's a pro-Palestinian website that uses Patrick Henry's "Give me liberty or give me death" quote as justification for the militant uprising of the Palestinians! And our proclaimed altruist motive of promoting "democracy" and "liberty" in the region is lost on the masses when we continue to give a free pass to Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Pakistan. I know you weren't necessarilly arguing to the contrary in your article, but I thought this was necessary follow up to the conclusion of your article.

Post 4

Friday, November 11 - 3:28pm

Link

Edit

Pete -- You're right about the implications of my piece, that a secular society must emerge. Even in America throughout it's history, while most citizens considered themselves Christians or religious, they were secular enough to build their own lives and the country without wanting to kill there neighbors.

An implication of my piece also is that nation-building is extremely difficult when we're facing a deeply ingrained irrational culture. (That's why I say that my piece is not a justification for the Iraq war.) And I do have serious problems with the way the administration is promoting "democracy" in Iraq and elsewhere. They should be promoting individual liberty, etc.

The Bush folks think that if Iraq and other countries become, if not like Western democracies, at least democracies like Turkey, America would be safer. True. But is it possible? By the way, Europe is fast using up its cultural capital as socialism pulls countries down and contributes to what just happened in France.

Individuals in Muslim countries might deserve freedom but are they morally fit for it? Here's my short piece on that topic:
http://www.objectivistcenter.org/text/ehudgins_middle-east-fit-freedom.asp?mc

Post 5

Friday, November 11 - 6:25pm

Link

Edit

Ed Hudgins wrote near the end of his outstanding meditation:

...soul-searching by Muslims is long overdue. Those who hold a benign interpretation of Islamic theory need to take a hard, careful look at the values underlying its practice in many cultures. As accepted by too many Muslims, Islam is an irrational fundamentalist doctrine, and its practitioners hold values hostile to individual liberty and the toleration of philosophical differences. They favor indoctrination and blind faith over critical thought. And since they abandon reason in dealing with others and discovering truth, they must resort to force in order to instill their views on the unwilling....

Responsibility for the global surge of Islamic terrorism largely can be laid at the doorstep of those who claim to reject such methods, but who accept the value premises that lead to terrorism. The terrorists themselves are simply more consistent in following the logical implications of such premises. Their deadly means reflect their death-worshipping ends.

But it isn't just Islamdom that needs to do the soul-searching -- it's also the West. For the most part, the illiberal values of the Muslims is mirrored in that of Westerners. We both strongly favor a philosophy of irrationality and religion, an ethics of group-love and self-sacrifice, and a politics of collectivism and "soft" tyranny.

Few things are as sickening and hopeless as all those prayer services and invocations of god every 9/11. And what about all the calls to sacrifice for the nation and the greater good? Muslim hearts must quietly soar! Americans don't seem to have a clue about what's really going on with our attackers, or much of a prayer of winning any time soon. Americans need to do some deep soul-searching ourselves about our deeply irrational values and beliefs. Our poor philosophy encourages and empowers Muslims worldwide: we are our own worst enemy. When we look at those hateful horrific terrorist monsters we need to realize that we're pretty much looking at a mirror. George Bush, especially, looks at great deal like Osama bin Lauden in his most fundamental/core values and beliefs.

And as for Ed's point about "favor[ing] indoctrination and blind faith over critical thought," that applies significantly to Objectivists. I'm talking here especially about The Ayn Rand Institute.

(Edited by Andre Zantonavitch on 11/11, 7:20pm)