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Friday, July 1 - 5:24pmSanction this postReply
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No, and neither is most of the information on that site linking to a wide variety of America-haters.  I'm not about to take it point by point either.  If you have a specific idea from this article to discuss, bring it up and we'll debate it.
(Edited by Scott Schiff on 7/01, 5:27pm)




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Post 1

Friday, July 1 - 5:33pmSanction this postReply
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Scott,

Have you read Strauss?  I have and the interview doesn't misrepresent his views at all. I have never seen the site quoted from before, and you may be right about it in general, but this interview is dead on correct about Strauss and his followers.  If you haven't read him you have no business making the statements you are making.  (The original statement was later edited out.) Wolfowitz is an avowed Straussian and others in the administration are admirers.  Tibor Machan is making a presentation about him at the TOC Summer Seminar.  I'd suggest starting with Natural Right and History.  Then I'd read his book about Machiavelli (he was a major fan.)  After the summer seminar you can get a copy of Tibor's tape.

Scott edited his post while I was replying and took out the most onerous statement that he made.  I don't want to do an idea by idea debate on this.  People really need to read Strauss and consider his influence on the neo-conservatives.  A cornerstone of his political thought is lying to the public.  No one in the administration has admitted to adopting this part of his program, but they certainly rave about Strauss. 

Bill

(Edited by Bill Perry on 7/01, 5:42pm)




Post 2

Friday, July 1 - 6:05pmSanction this postReply
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I've read about Strauss, in the NY Times.  Just because Wolfowitz was influenced by him doesn't mean that he's lying.  Hillary claimed at one time to have been influenced by Ayn Rand.



Post 3

Friday, July 1 - 7:38pmSanction this postReply
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Scott,
 
Wolfowitz was actually, I believe, a student of Allan Bloom. There is supposedly a difference in Straussian interpretation. An east coast interpretation, and a west coast. West coast Straussians seem to associate Strauss with a patriotic, theistic position that is literally stated in his writings, and are generally known as political conservatives. The East Coast Straussians (which Allan Bloom was) suggest that Strauss was an atheist and even Nietszchean at heart, although he moderated these views in his published writings. But it's there. This comes back to exoteric and esoteric  meaning.

I agree with the east coast, and I believe Wolfowitz does also. No matter how much he claims he wasn't influenced by Strauss or Bloom, I have a very hard time believing him.


(Edited by shane hurren on 7/01, 7:39pm)




Post 4

Friday, July 1 - 9:26pmSanction this postReply
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In all truthfullness, we can only speculate about Wolfowitz. Is he telling the truth? Who knows.  How Nietzsche ever got caught upon with the left to me is rather amazing though. While Nietzsche isn't a conservative and he is a relativist, he is also most importantly, an elitist. Often elitism has always been joined with a form of conservatism. Strauss thought that Machiavelli made explicit what was always secret, he made politics into science. Formally myth and religion was there to keep people in the cave. Nietzsche too thought reason had now turned it's back on itself, and undermined the very foundation which gave the growing age of reason stability. When reading Strauss, you can almost come away with a sense that he maybe a Burkean type of conservative.

No matter how you look at him, he doesn't believe that the individual or the private interests are as important as the public good, the good city. Absolute atomism and reason of individuals leads to degeneration. He saw religion as a powerful political tool. That civil society depended on the unification of the people, that reason itself was an outgrowth of society and religion and war can be seen as strong unifying agents that give a country a common goal and belief. This is the medicine for the people against the plague of nihilism and liberal degeration. This was the cave, the illusion.

What is good, is what the strong suggest, and they must keep the public in the cave.

(Edited by shane hurren on 7/01, 9:31pm)




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Post 5

Saturday, July 2 - 5:09amSanction this postReply
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My favorite part of this article:

---------------
After my first book on Strauss came out, some of the Straussians in Canada dubbed me the “bitch from Calgary.” Of all the titles I hold, that is the one I cherish most. The hostility toward me was understandable. Nothing is more threatening to Strauss and his acolytes than the truth in general and the truth about Strauss in particular. His admirers are determined to conceal the truth about his ideas.
---------------


3 key excerpts from Natural Right and History ...


On using force and fraud:
---------------
Are the maxims of foreign policy essentially different from the maxims on which gangs of robbers act? Can they be different? Are cities not compelled to use force and fraud or to take away from other cities what belong to the latter, if they are to prosper?
---------------


On nature and justice:
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Experience shows that justice by itself is ineffectual. This merely confirms what was shown before, that justice has no basis in nature. [break] What justice demands of us is then against nature.
---------------


On conflict between Man and State:
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Therefore, the conflict between the self-interest of the individual and the demands of the city or of right is inevitable. The city cannot settle this conflict except by declaring that the city or right is of higher dignity than the self-interest of the individual or that it is sacred.
---------------

Ed



Post 6

Saturday, July 2 - 9:14amSanction this postReply
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While Nietzsche isn't a conservative and he is a relativist, he is also most importantly, an elitist.

I thought one of the main attributes of Straussians is that they were anti-relativist.  Which shows my earlier point, that just because someone is influenced by an intellectual doesn't mean they accept everything that intellectual believes in.  Now how about posting an article about which lefty intellectuals have turned top Democrats into America-haters. 




Post 7

Saturday, July 2 - 9:54amSanction this postReply
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For me, the reality of the invasion of Iraq is founded in Drury's identification of the impossibility of IDEAL RULE; and the ensuing COVERT RULE OF THE WISE facilitated by the OVERWHELMING STUPIDITY  of GENTLEMEN, who send their children; off to lead those of the VULGAR,  into battle.

  I knew there was a conspiracy theory behind that "war"............Vietnam, too

Something else to blame on God!    Wahoo!!!

Sharon
I'm not shouting. I'm computer illiterate; and as yet, haven't learned all those artistic features with which the creative, manipulate print.

(Edited by Sharon Romagnoli Macdonald on 7/02, 10:00am)




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Post 8

Saturday, July 2 - 11:01amSanction this postReply
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Conspiracy theories are rooted in the primacy of consciousness.  Sharon, how would you fight the war on terror?



Post 9

Saturday, July 2 - 2:37pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Scott,

Scott writes,

 
Which shows my earlier point, that just because someone is influenced by an intellectual doesn't mean they accept everything that intellectual believes in. 


Yes you are correct here.... as I said....

In all truthfullness, we can only speculate about Wolfowitz. Is he telling the truth? Who knows.

Scott writes,

I thought one of the main attributes of Straussians is that they were anti-relativist.


I wouldn't say they are. Or Strauss was.  Exoterically,yes. Esoterically no. This was the job of the special few to be able to see. He admired the exoteric moral writing of past philosophers to ground society with strong values, beliefs, and goals. But the ruling few knew it was a part of the cave. They cannot acknowledge this when making decisions politically, because it doesn't exist, and because it may actually harm the city itself if they did follow it. They must make decisions beyond it.

Quote Allan Bloom from Plato’s Republic, Interpretative Essay:

"Socrates can go naked where others go clothed; he is not afraid of ridicule. He can also contemplate sexual intercourse where others are stricken with terror; he is not afraid of moral indignation. In other words he treats the comic seriously and the tragic lightly. He can smile where others cry and remaim earnest where others laugh. In the symposium he says that the true poet must be both tragedian and comedian, implying that the true poet is the philosopher. Here he shows that the man who has both gifts must use them to oppose the ways of the vulgar tragic and comic poets use them; he must treat the tragic lightly and the comic seriously, hence reversing their usual roles. The man who is able to do this is already the philosopher. In both cases, it is shame that must be opposed; for shame is the wall built by convention that STANDS BETWEEN THE MIND AND LIGHT. The oridinary poetry appeals to that shame, accepting it edicts as law, while philosophic poetry OVERCOMES IT"

The good is the strong. The good are the lovers of the harsh, unadulterated truth. They are capable of looking into the abyss without fear and trembling. Now, it is true people cannot make a decision in life without making some sort of value judgement. Life and value cannot be seperated, as the quote below shows, even Nietzsche himself aims at some form of the good...

Nietzsche from the Antichrist:

What is good?— Everything that heightens the feeling of power in man, the will to power, power itself.

What is bad?— Everything that is born of weakness.
What is happiness?— The feeling that power is growing, that resistance is overcome.
Not contentedness but more power; not peace but war; not virtue but fitness (Renaissance-style virtue, virtù, moraline-free virtue).


Shane




Post 10

Saturday, July 2 - 11:24pmSanction this postReply
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Scott,

I'm a Canadian,  Please tell me, what exactly is the war on Terrorism? 

Sharon





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Post 11

Sunday, July 3 - 12:15amSanction this postReply
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It's the fight against Islamic extremists intent on destroying the West (what they call Dar al Haab) to create a worldwide Islamic Caliphate (Dar al Islam) .  That your side doesn't know what the War on Terror is, is exactly why your side isn't qualified to be in charge of it, and thank goodness a majority of the American people seem to have understood that since 9/11. 



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Post 12

Sunday, July 3 - 7:03amSanction this postReply
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Scott,

If it's an ideological war; then how is using guns the most effective weapon?

Sharon




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Post 13

Sunday, July 3 - 10:03amSanction this postReply
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Did I say it was just an ideological war?  We need guns to kill and capture terrorists as well as a plan to encourage freedom in the Middle East. (i.e. Democracy in Iraq).  You're good with asking questions, but not with offering answers.  Again Sharon, what is your plan to win the War on Terror?  To try to be nice to the terrorists?  How Canadian.



Post 14

Sunday, July 3 - 10:41amSanction this postReply
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To try to be nice to the terrorists? How Canadian.

And your solution? Smash, kill, destroy! Ask questions later. How Kansan.

Why should we bring "freedom" to the Middle East? We are not responsible for their freedom, they are. If you want to argue that we went to war to protect the interests of the US, please do. I'd buy that way before this freedom crap you're spouting.

Sarah



Post 15

Sunday, July 3 - 11:10amSanction this postReply
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What we learned post 9/11 is that it's in our national security interests to encourage freedom in the Middle East.  By offering the people a choice to express themselves can they possibly shake off this new more radicalized Islam (Wahabbism) that has been spreading throughout the region over the past generation. 

Frankly Sarah, your characterization of my view is dishonest.  I said that both strategies need to be pursued.  I've offered her a chance to discuss how she would fight the war.  How would you fight the War on Terror? 

Also, 'Freedom crap', Sarah?  You could run for office as a Democrat with that attitude.

(Edited by Scott Schiff on 7/03, 11:18am)




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Post 16

Sunday, July 3 - 11:13amSanction this postReply
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I meant 'freedom crap' as their freedom being the reason we attacked. That's bullshit.

Sarah

(Edited by Sarah House
on 7/03, 11:13am)




Post 17

Sunday, July 3 - 11:17amSanction this postReply
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Scott,

Before we go any further in arguing the issue of what to do about terrorists; please, can you tell me if this issue is bringing forth some element of rage from you?

If you are already angry we must discuss that issue first.  Anger does not a good debater make.

Sharon



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Post 18

Sunday, July 3 - 11:20amSanction this postReply
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I'm not angry.  Now quit stalling, and offer your alternative ideas for fighting the war on terror.  :-)



Post 19

Sunday, July 3 - 10:41pmSanction this postReply
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Scott,

I am not stalling.  My children are at he top of my list of higher values. I'm not sending them off to battle unless it's a just war; and they have a good chance of victory.
Do we agree on that?

Islamic Terrorists are not rational; they believe in the supernatural. They are following an obsolete text that was designed for overcoming the brutality of  life in the desert.  How does one fight that?  I would say that since ignorance is the root cause; then it must be fought with the weapons of enlightenment. Education is the battleground; but that's a long process; and USA is a young country and hasn't learned to be patient. What to do?

Islamic Terrorists have different values than we infidels. Their identity, their highest value is at stake. They have no minimum standards for war. It is not a game for them. it is a fight to the death, to win by any means at all costs, and to keep sending out fighters to the last warrior.   To win, one must sink to their level; compromise every previously held standard. Winning means losing.  What to do?

Here is the crux of the matter.     Why was USA targetted for special treatment by the terrorists?  I believe it was to knock USA off its pedestal. Everyone in the world knew that USA was the greatest country in the world, greatest freedom, greatest wealth, greatest armed forces, greatest entrepreneurs.  Unfortunately the USA is not the home of the wise.  When you  go around shouting like Muhammed Ali; someone is bound to challenge you to a fight.  Being who they are; the Islamic Terrorists picked their time and place on September Eleven.  What to do?                                                           

The first thing to do is to discover the answer to Freud's question about women;  WHAT DOES AMERICA WANT?

I am not a statist; one decent country is as good as another to me.  Also,I have no interest in barbarians. If the people of the world want to fight and brutalize each other I can't prevent them; but I won't help them. I ignore them. If they come to me for help, I will put all my surplus resources into helping them to arrive at a solution for their problem. If I have any resources left, I might help them with the solution.

So, Scott,  tell me please, Do you know what "your" country wants?  Perhaps you and I can save the world right here on the pages of SOLOHQ.
It's 1:40 AM where I am.


HAPPY BIRTHDAY AMERICA   and many more                   Affectionately from Sharon, your little sister from the North






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