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Post 0

Saturday, October 22 - 5:40amSanction this postReply
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Always thought Wendy Carlos did great in expanding good sound from synthesizers, especially in her composition Digital Moonscapes, but few seemed to follow... and those who did seemed to prefer utilizing the sounds on old compositions than new ones,  like Tomika's Snowflakes are Dancing, which was an interestingly different interpretation of some of Debussy's works - especially his Engulfed Cathedral, turning that one into a really eerie piece...



Post 1

Saturday, October 22 - 8:57amSanction this postReply
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Melody, harmony, rhythm.

Does a piece of music require all three?  Is any one alone sufficient to 'make' music?




Post 2

Saturday, October 22 - 11:20amSanction this postReply
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Well, since music is defined as 'harmonic progression of sound', perhaps only the melody is required...

It is, after all, where music evolved from, the mating cries such as from birds, elevated to aesthetic appreciation...

(Edited by robert malcom on 10/22, 11:23am)




Post 3

Saturday, October 22 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
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It is, after all, where music evolved from, the mating cries such as from birds
Somehow, I doubt this, although Disney must have thought so.  His cartoon heroines have a habit of singing with birds.




Post 4

Saturday, October 22 - 2:40pmSanction this postReply
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Has nothing to do with Disney - try Nature from the PBS, the show Song of the Earth, with David Attenborough...




Post 5

Saturday, October 22 - 4:42pmSanction this postReply
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Robert D. asks:
Melody, harmony, rhythm.

Does a piece of music require all three?  Is any one alone sufficient to 'make' music?
As I see it, rhythm is the only ingredient you could isolate and make a piece of music out of - a drum solo, for example - but melody and harmony usually require at least one of the other components along with it. Let's look at each aspect in particular:

Melody - A melody consists of two or more notes played in succession.  So in order to make music without melody, you'd be limited to just playing one single note, one time only (you could make the duration as long as you wanted).  That does not constitute a piece of music by any rational standard.

Harmony - Harmony is two or more notes played simultaneously.  To make music with harmony alone, you would be limited to playing one chord, one time only (you could make the duration as long as you wante). Again, this is not music by any rational standard.

Basically, once you have two or more successive notes in a piece of music, you have achieved both rhythm and melody.




Post 6

Saturday, October 22 - 5:05pmSanction this postReply
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Robert M. : "Always thought Wendy Carlos did great in expanding good sound from synthesizers, especially in her composition Digital Moonscapes, but few seemed to follow... and those who did seemed to prefer utilizing the sounds on old compositions than new ones, like Tomika's Snowflakes are Dancing, which was an interestingly different interpretation of some of Debussy's works - especially his Engulfed Cathedral, turning that one into a really eerie piece...".

I am not a big Carlos fan, and haven't listened in depth, but my initial reaction was that it was not her performance but the tones themselves that bothered me. Granted, it was the early days of synths, but to me they sound...cheesy? Too clean, I think they were going for "pure tones" back then, without overtones and such.

You mention the utilization of new sounds on old compositions...You mean of the "Switched on Bach" variety? (And wasn't Carlos part of that as well? I don't know.) A contemporary version of that that I like is William Orbit's PIECES IN A MODERN STYLE. Orbit is one of Madonna's current producers, so I was a little surprised when I heard it; it's basically old classics done on the current synth technology. I think it sounds much better than the older attempts at synthed classics, personally, the tones are much better. But still, while it sounds nice, I don't know if I'd consider it a musical advancement.

Jean Michelle Jarre is one electronic composer who work with newer styles to interesting effect, and I think more is needed. (It doesn't hurt that his father is the composer Maurice Jarre, one of my favorites.) We don't build skyscrapers out of wood, and we don't use steele to build log cabins. I'd much rather see where the technology can take us. Still, it's probably neccesary to try the electronic classics approach as a step.

(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 10/22, 5:54pm)




Post 7

Saturday, October 22 - 5:21pmSanction this postReply
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double post deleted
(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 10/22, 5:23pm)




Post 8

Saturday, October 22 - 5:22pmSanction this postReply
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Regarding Robert D.'s question:
It's a legitimate question, and it will be addressed soon (I'm trying to draft someone to tackle an article on that, I need a bit of a break.) Though the article pertains more to technology, it does presume that melody, harmony and rhythm are essential.
You're jumping the gun on me, so my quick two cent answer is that melody presupposes rhythm (as in the timing, phrasing,meter, not necessarily a beat) and rhythm can have pitch, and a good percussive piece will have some kind of melodic contour, I think...since music exists through time, rhythm is definitely essential. However, I think the interesting thing is to what extent developed rhythm and melody can exist together. Rule of thumb has been that the more developed the melody, the simpler the rhythm, and vice verse, almost like a tug of war.

Jourdain has a section on this in his book (if you haven't guessed, I highly recommend it to everyone on the music forum as well as those who want to learn more about how music works).

"Rhythm wars. On one side, devotees of meter protest that art music is missing an entire dimension, robbing the listener of a kind of rhythmic pleasure that has for many become music's mainstay. On the other side, devotees of classical music complain that the obsession with beat trivializes everything it touches, appealing to our lowest instincts, like greasy food. Where one side sees musical opportunity in metrical patterns, the other finds an idiot's metronome...this battle is far from over."



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Post 9

Saturday, October 22 - 6:07pmSanction this postReply
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Jourdain also points out that, contrary to most presumptions, music did NOT begin with rhythm, but with melody...
(Edited by robert malcom on 10/22, 6:08pm)




Post 10

Saturday, October 22 - 10:15pmSanction this postReply
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Robert M,

It is impossible to have a melody without rhythm, as I pointed out earlier.  If you in fact mean that the first musical instrument was the voice and not bones banging on the rock, then I think you're right. 




Post 11

Sunday, October 23 - 5:26amSanction this postReply
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From Curt Sachs' Rhythm and Tempo -
                            
                When Hans von Bulow, the great conductor and pianist, boldly decreed: "In the beinning was rhythm," he took advantage of the perogative of so many pointed sayings to be pithy, impressive, and unfounded.  Organization of rhythm came long, long after men - like the birds - had given melodic shape to mirth and to mourning.  As long as singers stand alone, without other voices or instruments to join, the urge for strictness in rhythm and tempo is weak.


From Jourdain's Music, the Brain and Ecstasy -   

Yet rhythm is often described as music's most essential trait, since music unfolds across time, and time is rhythm;s domain.  A drummer can tap out complex rhythms that everybody agrees are a kind of skeletal music, and she does this without playing tones.  Where there are no tones there is no pitch, and without pitch there is no melody.  For this reason [the argument goes] rhythm can exist without melody, and so rhythm must precede melody in our experience.

All evidence contradicts this logic.  Not only is strict meter rare among traditional cultures, it is virtually unknown in the early history of Western music.  Our eight-century-old tradition evolved from chant that had little rhythm beyond the prosody of language.  Some musicologists believe that even that paragon of metrical music, the supposedly "primitive" drumming of black Africa [which in fact is highly technical], is actually a relatively recent development, one that may have been seeded by contact with the metrically rich music of the Middle East.

Developmental psychology also offers clues about music's evolution, on the assumption that cultures are likely to discover first what comes most easily to human beings.  Children acquire music initially as melody, often by emphasizing the natural intonation of lyrics.  Early melody is unstable, following no strict beat and wavering in pitch level.  Rhythmic regularity comes years later, and a true sense of harmony later still.

Sachs describes what may be the precursor of melody as "tumbling strains".  These are single, drawn-out noises that ethnomusicologists have sometimes encountered in technically primitive cultures:
               Its character is wild and violent: after a leap up to the highest available note
               in screaming fortissimo, the voice rattles down by jumps or steps or glides
               to a pianissimo respite on a couple of the lowest, almost inaudible notes;
               then, in a mighty leap, it resumes the highest note to repeat this cascade as
               often as necessary.  In their most emotional and least "melodious" form,
               such strains recall nearly inhuman, savage shouts of joy or wails of rage
               and may derive from such unbridled outbursts.

But why would human beings expend energy on making such sounds?  Civilization has led men to indulge in all sorts of useless activities.  But in prehistoric societies everything served survival one way or another.  Many suggestions have been made for music's survival value.  Charles Darwin believed music evolved for courtship, pointing to a much greater difference in the frequency range of male and female voices than can be accounted for by body size alone.  But such narrow explanations do not account for music's presence in every aspect of life.

Because music is possible only in very intelligent brains, one approach to understanding how we developed music is to ask why why we evolved so large a cerebrum.  Increasingly, anthropologists have come to regard the benefits of social interaction as the driving force behind the explosion in human brain size.  Where once scholars emphasized the value of a large brain in building tools, now they extol the virtues of cooperation in hunting, fighting, and above all, in child rearing.

Cooperation is not easily achieved.  Animals are overwhelmingly self-interested.  Those that triumph in life's competitions live on to spread their genes to future generations, so that their characteristics triumph in the species as a whole.  Individual self-sacrifice for the good of all is rare among animals, if only because there is always advantage in taking more than one gives.  An organism must be able to look far into the future, and to remember far into the past, to make possible the give-now-and-receive-later calculus of cooperation.  Only the symbolic minds of human beings are up to the job.

Above all, cooperation entails reust.  Human beings must constantly reassure one another that each is equally committed to the common good.We exchange symbols of our concern in a thousand ways, from a polite hello to a cheer at a political rally.  The rituals of cooperation are everywhere and bear constant repitition.  Those who fail to participate, or who do so half-heartedly, earn suspicion and resentment in excess of what seems warrented.  But it is the whole community that is at stake, not merely a moment's pleasantness.

In the view of many anthropologists, music first evolved to strengthen community bonds, and resolve conflicts.  This idea is anything but far-fetched.  Many animals employ their vocal apparatus to convey fine gradations of emotions and intention.  When one dog whines in submission to another, it is voicing a kind of melody that cements a social pact.  As humans evolved language, with intonation inherent in every word, it seems inevitable that formal expressions of emotion would gradually coalesce into something like melody.  After all, ritualized displays of emotion often appear in traditional cultures as stereotyped physical motions - little dances performed to demand or threaten or assuage or reassure.  Why not ritualized motions of the voice as well?




Post 12

Sunday, October 23 - 8:23amSanction this postReply
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Sachs' a reknown musicologist, btw... further, his description of the primitive is remarkably akin to those observed by David Attenborough in Song of the Earth, wherein is observed the orangs doing their mating and reinforcing/reassurance 'melodies'... which also, btw, was denied to Darwin, else it would have added to his observation of music's origins as being initially from courting calls - not just of birds but of others as well - origins which expanded into those involving community, as Jourdain writes [remember - reassurance starts with two, before it can then expand to more ]...



Post 13

Sunday, October 23 - 8:27amSanction this postReply
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If by rhythm you mean metered rhythm, then yes I agree.  We must be precise with our terminology.   



Post 14

Sunday, October 23 - 9:12amSanction this postReply
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Exactly, and the almost universal understanding of rhythm is that of metered - as witness all the examples usually given for it, from rock-and-roll to jazz drummings to African beatings.  To 'extend' the concept to inclusiveness of all patterning in music is to obliterate it - much as pomo's try to do regarding art, claiming it is whatever one wishes to call art...
(Edited by robert malcom on 10/23, 9:13am)




Post 15

Sunday, October 23 - 9:18amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

My greater point was that no matter who says it, it is merely idle speculation.




Post 16

Sunday, October 23 - 9:25amSanction this postReply
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Why claim "... merely idle speculation " - what, then, would remove the idle from it?

[indeed, why the "merely", as if seeking foundations be meritless ]

(Edited by robert malcom on 10/23, 9:28am)




Post 17

Sunday, October 23 - 9:30amSanction this postReply
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In the view of many anthropologists, music first evolved to strengthen community bonds, and resolve conflicts.
This kind of BS annoys the life out of me.  There is no evidence whatever to support such a conclusion. 




Post 18

Sunday, October 23 - 9:34amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Because no one was there, there are no written records, there is no way of proving it.  Birds taught man to sing?  I could just as easily speculate that man taught birds to sing.  Who could prove me wrong?




Post 19

Sunday, October 23 - 11:06amSanction this postReply
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Anthropology is not a science to you then? Anything before written records mean nothing - is "mere speculation" ?



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