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Post 360

Friday, October 28 - 5:21pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Dwyer,

I reread Prof. Matson's essay and got a different impression from it.  Actually, he seems to understand Rand well.  What you point out are differences between Rand and Matson.  Prof. Matson explain why he differs from Rand and his discussion of why Rand's view of concepts has the potential to lead to subjectivism or solipsism struck me as quite interesting.  He does in fact say why he rejects the notion of concepts. 

One thing that appears to bother Prof. Matson is that Rand's critique of "modern philosophy" is rather one-sided.  In any event, Prof. Matson tries to understand Rand better than she tried to understand other philosophers.  Maybe the reason Rand is ignored is that her acolytes will immediately attack intelligent critiques of her as "dishonest," "rationalistic" or whatever.

Incidentally, Prof. Matson says that he is a libertarian and sympathetic to many of Rand's ideas, so I think we simply have an honest disagreement here. 




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Post 361

Friday, October 28 - 8:27pmSanction this postReply
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Neil, you wrote,

"I reread Prof. Matson's essay and got a different impression from it. Actually, he seems to understand Rand well. What you point out are differences between Rand and Matson. Prof. Matson explain why he differs from Rand and his discussion of why Rand's view of concepts has the potential to lead to subjectivism or solipsism struck me as quite interesting. He does in fact say why he rejects the notion of concepts."

Perhaps, I was being a bit too flippant and unfair to Matson, for he does give a plausible rendering of Rand's views in the initial part of his essay, wherein he acknowledges a meaningful distinction between the referents of words and concepts, but he nevertheless winds up dismissing that distinction and accepting the use of "word" as an apparent substitute for "concept," evidently on the grounds that words and concepts have the same referents.

When Rand says that it is not words but concepts that man defines, I think that what she may have in mind is that one can (at least initially) employ a word to symbolize whatever concept one chooses. In that respect, the definition of a word cannot be true or false, because it constitutes an arbitrary designation. But the definition of a concept can be true or false, because it must conform to certain epistemological criteria. It must specify the concept's genus and differentia.

- Bill



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Post 362

Saturday, October 29 - 7:25amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Byan Register has an article about Rand's view of concepts in Vol. 1, No. 2 issues of JARS.  He reaches some similar conclusions to Matson's.  The relationship between words and concepts in Rand's thought is rather unclear.




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Post 363

Saturday, October 29 - 8:31pmSanction this postReply
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> The relationship between words and concepts in Rand's thought is rather unclear. [Neil P]

The relationship between words and concepts in Rand's thought is crystal clear.



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Post 364

Saturday, October 29 - 8:33pmSanction this postReply
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Perhaps that's the problem, Phil - they can't see the water for the clarity...



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Post 365

Saturday, October 29 - 9:01pmSanction this postReply
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Neil,

Why on earth would Matson eliminate the word "concept" from Rand's statements about concepts and substitute for it the the word "word," when words and concepts are two distinctly different things? The term "word" is not a substitute for the term "concept." Many different words can represent the same concept (e.g., "man" in English, "homme" in French, "hombre" in Spanish, etc.). A word that happens to designate the concept 'man' is not synonymous with the concept itself. It symbolizes the concept, but it is not equivalent to the concept. I would have thought this to be fairly obvious.

- Bill



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Post 366

Saturday, October 29 - 10:07pmSanction this postReply
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William,
It's been several years since I read the essay, but I believe the answer to your question is that Matson wrote as a materialist who thought that using words like 'concept' led to ineradicable fuzziness and that substituting something concrete and perceptual was less fuzzy.  I could be wrong, but that's the impression and interpretation I had at the time.

Before, then, and since, I disagreed with him entirely and I could be misinterpreting him.  But I doubt it.

Jeff




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Post 367

Sunday, October 30 - 5:15amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Engle,

What you say in post 357 also squares with my own experience.

The people I've known who rejected Rand's philosophy did so because on reasoned consideration they rejected some of its leading ideas, or they were not bright enough to comprehend and retain integrated philosophic thought, or they did not want to let go of their treasured religious beliefs.

Perhaps it would not be too meandering to mention here a remarkable difference of attitude I've noticed among people who reject, on reasoned consideration, some of the leading ideas in Rand's philosophy. I mean a difference among such people who say or write anything about Rand's philosophic thought. Some will be concerned to say emphatically that they are not an Objectivist and rat-a-tat-tat all the errors they notice in Rand's thought. Others will tell you the reasons they should not be classified as an Objectivist, but they also observe and remark upon ideas of Rand's they think on the right track and worth trying to develop or promulgate.

I don't think the difference between these two sorts of people who should not be classed as Objectivist comes from a difference in what they see wrong in Rand's thought. It's surely something of an emotional difference.




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Post 368

Monday, October 31 - 10:48amSanction this postReply
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Stephen:

I don't think the difference between these two sorts of people who should not be classed as Objectivist comes from a difference in what they see wrong in Rand's thought. It's surely something of an emotional difference.

I know for sure you are spot on with this, but it is a difficult discussion to manage.

I acknowledge that The Break had a significant impact on the dissemination/growth of the philsophy, the movement, just as similar breaks in any organizational structure do. What I do not buy into is that the books by the Brandens created a significant impediment (as in, on the population as a whole). There are other reasons, and some of them have been touched on here. I think that anything that requires a high level of personal accountability is a hard sell. Anything that requires a great deal of work is a hard sell. The question is: Why is the experience we all talk about when we read Atlas Shrugged not as pervasive as it looks like it ought to be? We can blame that on the outside, or we can look at it from the inside. Personally, I think the problem starts at the top, at the "ownership" level, and you all know who I'm talking about.

I think the standard explanations given for the backlash to modernism (note the explosive return to the scary, high-tech evangelical churches) are not entirely honest nor complete. It needs to be looked into, and it needs to be looked into differently- something involving solutions would be good.




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